Indocyanine green (ICG) fluorescence imaging for prevention of anastomotic leak in totally minimally invasive Ivor Lewis esophagectomy: a systematic review and meta-analysis

Diagnostic Performance of Near-Infrared Fluorescent Marking Clips in Laparoscopic Gastrectomy

INTRODUCTION

Accurate tumor localization and resection margin acquisition are essential in gastric cancer surgery. Preoperative placement of marking clips in laparoscopic gastrectomy as well as intraoperative gastroscopy can be used for gastric cancer surgery. However, these procedures are not available at all institutions. We conducted a prospective clinical trial to investigate the diagnostic performance of near-infrared fluorescent clips (ZEOCLIP FS) in laparoscopic gastrectomy.

MATERIALS AND METHODS

Patients with gastric cancer or neuroendocrine tumor in whom laparoscopic distal, pylorus-preserving, or proximal gastrectomy was planned were enrolled (n = 20) in this study. Fluorescent clips were placed proximal and/or distal to the tumor via gastroscopy on the day before surgery. During surgery, the clips were detected using a fluorescent laparoscope, and suturing was performed where fluorescence was detected. The clip locations were then confirmed via gastroscopy, and the stomach was transected. The primary endpoint was the detection rate of the marking clips using fluorescence, and the secondary endpoints were complications and distance between the clips and stitches.

RESULTS

Among the 20 patients enrolled, distal and pylorus-preserving gastrectomies were performed in 18 and 2 patients, respectively. All clips were detected in 15 patients, indicating a detection rate of 75.0% (90% confidence interval: 54.4%-89.6%). Furthermore, no complications related to the clips were observed. The median distance between the clips and stitches was 5 (range, 0-10) mm.

CONCLUSIONS

We report the feasibility and safety of preoperative placement and intraoperative detection of near-infrared fluorescent marking clips in laparoscopic gastrectomy.

Role of indocyanine green fluorescence imaging for evaluating blood supply in the gastric conduit via the substernal route after McKeown minimally invasive esophagectomy

BACKGROUND

Anastomotic leakage (AL) is a determining factor of morbidity and mortality after esophagectomy. Adequate perfusion of the gastric conduit is crucial for AL prevention. This study aimed to determine whether intraoperative angiography using indocyanine green (ICG) fluorescence improves the incidence of AL after McKeown minimally invasive esophagectomy (MIE) with gastric conduit via the substernal route (SR).

METHODS

This retrospective cohort study included 120 patients who underwent MIE with gastric conduit via SR for esophageal cancer between February 2019 and April 2023. Of 120 patients, 88 experienced intraoperative angiography using ICG (ICG group), and 32 patients experienced intraoperative angiography without ICG (no-ICG group). Baseline characteristics and operative outcomes, including AL as the main concern, were compared between the 2 groups. In addition, the outcomes among patients in the ICG group with different levels of fluorescence intensity were compared.

RESULTS

The ICG and no-ICG groups were comparable in baseline characteristics and operative outcomes. There was no significant difference between the 2 groups regarding the rate of AL (31.0% vs 37.5%; P = .505), median dates of AL (9 vs 9 days; P = .810), and severity of AL (88.9%, 11.11%, and 0.0% vs 66.7%, 16.7%, and 16.7% for grades I, II, and III, respectively; P = .074). Patients in the ICG group with lower intensity of ICG had higher rates of leakage (24.6%, 39.3%, and 100% in levels I, II, and III of ICG intensity, respectively; P = .04).

CONCLUSION

The use of ICG did not seem to reduce the rate of AL. However, abnormal intensity of ICG fluorescence was associated with a higher rate of AL, which implies a predictive potential.

Current applications of indocyanine green (ICG) in abdominal, gynecologic and urologic surgery: a meta-review and quality analysis with use of the AMSTAR 2 instrument

BACKGROUND

Indocyanine green (ICG) is an injectable fluorochrome that has recently gained popularity as a means of assisting intraoperative visualization during laparoscopic and robotic surgery. Many systematic reviews and meta-analyses have been published. We conducted a meta-review to synthesize the findings of these studies.

METHODS

PubMed and Embase were searched to identify systematic reviews and meta-analyses coping with the uses of ICG in abdominal operations, including Metabolic Bariatric Surgery, Cholecystectomy, Colorectal, Esophageal, Gastric, Hepato-Pancreato-Biliary, Obstetrics and Gynecology (OG), Pediatric Surgery, Surgical Oncology, Urology, (abdominal) Vascular Surgery, Adrenal and Splenic Surgery, and Interdisciplinary tasks, until September 2023. We submitted the retrieved meta-analyses to qualitative analysis based on the AMSTAR 2 instrument.

RESULTS

We identified 116 studies, 41 systematic reviews (SRs) and 75 meta-analyses (MAs), spanning 2013-2023. The most thoroughly investigated (sub)specialties were Colorectal (6 SRs, 25 MAs), OG (9 SRs, 15 MAs), and HPB (4 SRs, 12 MAs). Interestingly, there was high heterogeneity regarding the administered ICG doses, routes, and timing. The use of ICG offered a clear benefit regarding anastomotic leak prevention, particularly after colorectal and esophageal surgery. There was no clear benefit regarding sentinel node detection after OG. According to the AMSTAR 2 tool, most meta-analyses ranked as "critically low" (34.7%) or "low" (58.7%) quality. There were only five meta-analyses (6.7%) that qualified as "moderate" quality, whereas there were no "high" quality reviews.

CONCLUSIONS

Regardless of the abundance of pertinent literature and reviews, surgeons should be cautious when interpreting their results on ICG use in abdominal surgery. Future reviews should focus on ensuring methodological vigor; establishing clear protocols of ICG dose, route of administration, and timing; and improving reporting quality. Other sources of data (e.g., registries) and novel methods of data analysis (e.g., machine learning) might also contribute to an enhanced role of ICG as a decision-making tool in surgery.

Current status of indocyanine green fluorescent angiography in assessing perfusion of gastric conduit and oesophago-gastric anastomosis

Anastomotic leak (AL) remains a significant complication after esophagectomy. Indocyanine green fluorescent angiography (ICG-FA) is a promising and safe technique for assessing gastric conduit (GC) perfusion intraoperatively. It provides detailed visualization of tissue perfusion and has demonstrated usefulness in oesophageal surgery. GC perfusion analysis by ICG-FA is crucial in constructing the conduit and selecting the anastomotic site and enables surgeons to make necessary adjustments during surgery to potentially reduce ALs. However, anastomotic integrity involves multiple factors, and ICG-FA must be combined with optimization of patient and procedural factors to decrease AL rates. This review summarizes ICG-FA's current applications in assessing esophago-gastric anastomosis perfusion, including qualitative and quantitative analysis and different imaging systems. It also explores how fluorescent imaging could decrease ALs and aid clinicians in utilizing ICG-FA to improve esophagectomy outcomes.

Intraoperative Laparoscopic Hyperspectral Imaging during Esophagectomy-A Pilot Study Evaluating Esophagogastric Perfusion at the Anastomotic Sites

Hyperspectral imaging (HSI) is a non-invasive and contactless technique that enables the real-time acquisition of comprehensive information on tissue within the surgical field. In this pilot study, we investigated whether a new HSI system for minimally-invasive surgery, TIVITA® Mini (HSI-MIS), provides reliable insights into tissue perfusion of the proximal and distal esophagogastric anastomotic sites during 21 laparoscopic/thoracoscopic or robotic Ivor Lewis esophagectomies of patients with cancer to minimize the risk of dreaded anastomotic insufficiency. In this pioneering investigation, physiological tissue parameters were derived from HSI measurements of the proximal site of the anastomosis (esophageal stump) and the distal site of the anastomosis (tip of the gastric conduit) during the thoracic phase of the procedure. Tissue oxygenation (StO2), Near Infrared Perfusion Index (NIR-PI), and Tissue Water Index (TWI) showed similar median values at both anastomotic sites. Significant differences were observed only for NIR-PI (median: 76.5 vs. 63.9; p = 0.012) at the distal site (gastric conduit) compared to our previous study using an HSI system for open surgery. For all 21 patients, reliable and informative measurements were attainable, confirming the feasibility of HSI-MIS to assess anastomotic viability. Further studies on the added benefit of this new technique aiming to reduce anastomotic insufficiency are warranted.

A novel device to assess the oxygen saturation and congestion status of the gastric conduit in thoracic esophagectomy

BACKGROUND

In thoracic esophagectomy, anastomotic leakage is one of the most important surgical complications. Indocyanine green (ICG) is the most widely used method to assess tissue blood flow; however, this technique has been pointed out to have disadvantages such as difficulty in evaluating the degree of congestion, lack of objectivity in evaluating the degree of staining, and bias easily caused by ICG injection, camera distance, and other factors. Evaluating tissue oxygen saturation (StO2) overcomes these disadvantages and can be performed easily and repeatedly. It is also possible to measure objective values including the degree of congestion. We evaluate novel imaging technology to assess tissue oxygen saturation (StO2) in the gastric conduit during thoracic esophagectomy.

METHODS

Fifty patients were enrolled, with seven excluded due to intraoperative findings, leaving 43 for analysis. These patients underwent thoracic esophagectomy for esophageal cancer. The device was used intraoperatively to evaluate tissue oxygen saturation (StO2) and total hemoglobin index (T-HbI), which guided the optimal site for gastric tube anastomosis. The efficacies of StO2 and T-HbI in relation to short-term outcomes were analyzed.

RESULTS

StO2, indicating blood supply to the gastric tube, remained stable beyond the right gastroepiploic artery (RGEA) end but significantly decreased distally to the demarcation line (p <  0.05). T-HbI, indicative of congestion, significantly decreased past the RGEA (p <  0.05). Three patients experienced anastomotic leakage. These patients exhibited significantly lower StO2 (p <  0.01) and higher T-HbI (p <  0.01) at both the RGEA end and the demarcation line. Furthermore, the anastomotic site, usually within 3 cm of the RGEA's anorectal side, also showed significantly lower StO2 (p <  0.01) and higher T-HbI (p <  0.01) in patients with anastomotic leakage.

CONCLUSIONS

The novel device provides real-time, objective evaluations of blood flow and congestion in the gastric tube. It proves useful for safer reconstruction during thoracic esophagectomy, particularly by identifying optimal anastomosis sites and predicting potential anastomotic leakage.

[Indocyanine green in delayed esophageal reconstruction after previous extirpation]

Advanced chemo- and radiotherapy makes it possible to expand the cohort of patients who can undergo surgical treatment for esophageal cancer. Optimization of perioperative approach, diagnosis and modern options for complications reduced early postoperative mortality after esophagectomy. Conduit ischemia with failure of esophageal-gastric or esophageal-intestinal anastomosis is one of the most serious complications. To minimize the risk of anastomotic leakage and graft necrosis in these patients, various methods of intraoperative assessment of graft viability are being investigated. Near-infrared fluorescence imaging with indocyanine green is valuable for real time assessment of graft perfusion. To date, fluorescence imaging is analyzed regarding perfusion of the gastric stalk after esophagectomy. However, there are still few or no data on this method for analysis of colonic conduit perfusion. The absence of plastic material for gastrointestinal reconstruction is the most dangerous moment in case of ischemia and necrosis of colonic graft. We present our first case of delayed retrosternal esophageal repair using intraoperative indocyanine green fluorescence imaging for assessment of conduit perfusion.

Indocyanine green fluorescence in gastrointestinal surgery: Appraisal of current evidence

Applying indocyanine green (ICG) fluorescence in surgery has created a new dimension of navigation surgery to advance in various disciplines. The research in this field is nascent and fragmented, necessitating academic efforts to gain a comprehensive understanding. The present review aims to integrate diverse perspectives and recent advances in its application in gastrointestinal surgery. The relevant articles were selected by using the appropriate keyword search in PubMed. The angiography and cholangiography property of ICG fluorescence is helpful in various hepatobiliary disorders. In gastroesophageal and colorectal surgery, the lymphangiography and angiography property of ICG is applied to evaluate bowel vascularity and guide lymphadenectomy. The lack of objective parameters to assess ICG fluorescence has been the primary limitation when ICG is used to evaluate bowel perfusion. The optimum dose and timing of ICG administration need to be standardized in some new application areas in gastrointestinal surgery. Binding tumor-specific ligands with fluorophores can potentially widen the fluorescence application to detect primary and metastatic gastrointestinal tumors. The narrative review outlines prior contributions, limitations, and research opportunities for future studies across gastrointestinal sub-specialty. The findings of the present review would be helpful for scholars and practitioners to explore and progress in this exciting domain of gastrointestinal surgery.

Outcomes of Anastomotic Evaluation Using Indocyanine Green Fluorescence during Minimally Invasive Esophagectomy

BACKGROUND

Limited evidence exists assessing whether anastomotic evaluation using indocyanine green fluorescence (IGF) during minimally invasive esophagectomy (MIE) predicts or improves outcomes. We hypothesized that IGF helps surgeons predict anastomotic complications and reduces anastomotic leaks after MIE.

METHODS

In September 2019, our institution began routinely using IGF for intraoperative evaluation of anastomoses during MIE. Data were collected from patients undergoing MIE in the two years before and after this technology began being routinely used. Baseline characteristics and outcomes, including anastomotic leak, in patients who underwent indocyanine green fluorescence evaluation (ICG) and those who did not (nICG) were compared. Outcomes were also compared between ICG patients with normal versus abnormal fluorescence.

RESULTS

Overall, 181 patients were included. Baseline demographic and clinical characteristics did not differ between the ICG and nICG groups. ICG patients experienced higher rates of anastomotic leak (10.2% vs. 1.6%, P = .015) and 90-day mortality (8.5% vs. 1.6%, P = .04) compared to nICG patients. Due to lack of equipment availability, 19 nICG patients underwent MIE after the use of IGF became routine, and none developed leaks. ICG patients with abnormal fluorescence had higher rates of anastomotic leak (71.4% vs 1.9%, P < .001) and 30-day mortality (28.6% vs 0%, P = .012) compared to those with normal fluorescence.

DISCUSSION

Abnormal intraoperative IGF was associated with increased rate of anastomotic leak, suggesting predictive potential of IGF. However, its use was associated with an increased leak rate and higher mortality. Further studies are warranted to assess possible physiologic effects of indocyanine green on the esophageal anastomosis.

Minimally invasive surgery for gastro-oesophageal junction adenocarcinoma: Current evidence and future perspectives

Minimally invasive surgery is increasingly indicated in the management of malignant disease. Although oesophagectomy is a difficult operation, with a long learning curve, there is actually a shift towards the laparoscopic/thoracoscopic/ robotic approach, due to the advantages of visualization, surgeon comfort (robotic surgery) and the possibility of the whole team to see the operation as well as and the operating surgeon. Although currently there are still many controversial topics, about the surgical treatment of patients with gastro-oesophageal junction (GOJ) adenocarcinoma, such as the type of open or minimally invasive surgical approach, the type of oesophago-gastric resection, the type of lymph node dissection and others, the minimally invasive approach has proven to be a way to reduce postoperative complications of resection, especially by decreasing pulmonary complications. The implementation of new technologies allowed the widening of the range of indications for this type of surgical approach. The short-term and long-term results, as well as the benefits for the patient - reduced surgical trauma, quick and easy recovery - offer this type of surgical treatment the premises for future development. This article reviews the updates and perspectives on the minimally invasive approach for GOJ adenocarcinoma.

Dysphagia After Esophageal Replacement and Its Treatment

Dysphagia occurs temporarily or permanently following esophageal replacement in at least half of the cases. Swallowing disorder, in addition to severe decline in the quality of life, can lead to a deterioration of the general condition, which may lead to death if left untreated. For this reason, their early detection and treatment are a matter of importance. Between 1993 and 2012, 540 esophageal resections were performed due to malignant tumors at the Department of Surgery, Medical Center of the University of Pécs. Stomach was used for replacement in 445 cases, colon in 38 cases, and jejunum in 57 cases. The anastomosis with a stomach replacement was located to the neck in 275 cases and to the thorax in 170 cases. The colon was pulled up to the neck in each case. There were 29 cases of free jejunal replacements located to the neck and 28 cases with a Roux loop reconstruction located to the thorax. Based on the literature data and own experience, the following were found to be the causes of dysphagia in the order of frequency: anastomotic stenosis, conduit obstruction, peptic and ischemic stricture, foreign body, local recurrence, functional causes, new malignant tumor in the esophageal remnant, and malignant tumor in the organ used for replacement. Causes may overlap each other, and their treatment may be conservative or surgical. The causes of many dysphagic complications might be prevented by improving the anastomosis technique, by better preservation the blood supply of the substitute organ, by consistently applying a functional approach, and by regular follow-up.

Uniportal video-assisted thoracoscopic Ivor Lewis oesophagectomy

Standard minimally invasive Ivor Lewis oesophagectomy is performed through a multiport technique using carbon dioxide. However, access to video-assisted thoracoscopic surgery (VATS) is increasingly shifting to a single-port approach due to its proven safety and efficacy in lung surgeries. Therefore, the preamble of this submission is to describe, 'How I do differently' uniportal VATS MIO in three major steps: (a) VATS dissection through a single 4-cm incision in a semi-prone position without artificial capnothorax; (b) fluorescence dye to check conduit perfusion and (c) intrathoracic overlay anastomosis with a linear stapler.

Perfusion assessment by fluorescence time curves in esophagectomy with gastric conduit reconstruction: a prospective clinical study

BACKGROUND

Intraoperative perfusion assessment with indocyanine green fluorescence angiography (ICG-FA) may reduce postoperative anastomotic leakage rates after esophagectomy with gastric conduit reconstruction. This study evaluated quantitative parameters derived from fluorescence time curves to determine a threshold for adequate perfusion and predict postoperative anastomotic complications.

METHODS

This prospective cohort study included consecutive patients who underwent FA-guided esophagectomy with gastric conduit reconstruction between August 2020 and February 2022. After intravenous bolus injection of 0.05-mg/kg ICG, fluorescence intensity was registered over time by PINPOINT camera (Stryker, USA). Fluorescent angiograms were quantitatively analyzed at a region of interest of 1 cm diameter at the anastomotic site on the conduit using tailor-made software. Extracted fluorescence parameters were both inflow (T₀, T_max, F_max, slope, Time-to-peak) as outflow parameters (T_90% and T_80%). Anastomotic complications including anastomotic leakage (AL) and strictures were documented. Fluorescence parameters in patients with AL were compared to those without AL.

RESULTS

One hundred and three patients (81 male, 65.7 ± 9.9 years) were included, the majority of whom (88%) underwent an Ivor Lewis procedure. AL occurred in 19% of patients (n = 20/103). Both time to peak as T_max were significantly longer for the AL group in comparison to the non-AL group (39 s vs. 26 s, p = 0.04 and 65 vs. 51 s, p = 0.03, respectively). Slope was 1.0 (IQR 0.3-2.5) and 1.7 (IQR 1.0-3.0) for the AL and non-AL group (p = 0.11). Outflow was longer in the AL group, although not significantly, T_90% 30 versus 15 s, respectively, p = 0.20). Univariate analysis indicated that T_max might be predictive for AL, although not reaching significance (p = 0.10, area under the curve 0.71) and a cut-off value of 97 s was derived, with a specificity of 92%.

CONCLUSION

This study demonstrated quantitative parameters and identified a fluorescent threshold which could be used for intraoperative decision-making and to identify high-risk patients for anastomotic leakage during esophagectomy with gastric conduit reconstruction. A significant predictive value remains to be determined in future studies.

Indocyanine green fluorescence in robot-assisted minimally invasive esophagectomy with intrathoracic anastomosis: a prospective study

Indocyanine green fluorescence angiography (ICG-FA) allows for real-time intraoperative assessment of the perfusion of the gastric conduit during esophagectomy. The aim of this study was to investigate the effect of the implementation of ICG-FA during robot-assisted minimally invasive esophagectomy (RAMIE) with an intrathoracic anastomosis. In this prospective cohort study, a standardized protocol for ICG-FA was implemented in a high-volume center in December 2018. All consecutive patients who underwent RAMIE with an intrathoracic anastomosis were included. The primary outcome was whether the initial chosen site for the anastomosis on the gastric conduit was changed based on ICG-FA findings. In addition, ICG-FA was quantified based on the procedural videos. Out of the 63 included patients, the planned location of the anastomosis was changed in 9 (14%) patients, based on ICG-FA. The median time to maximum intensity at the base of the gastric conduit was shorter (25 s; range 13-49) compared to tip (34 s; range 12-83). In patients with anastomotic leakage, the median time to reach the FImax at the tip was 56 s (range 30-83) compared to 34 s (range 12-66) in patients without anastomotic leakage (p = 0.320). The use of ICG-FA resulted in an adaptation of the anastomotic site in nine (14%) patients during RAMIE with intrathoracic anastomosis. The quantification of ICG-FA showed that the gastric conduit reaches it maximum intensity in a base-to-tip direction. Perfusion of the entire gastric conduit was worse for patients with anastomotic leakage, although not statistically different.

Quantification of gastric tube perfusion following esophagectomy using fluorescence imaging with indocyanine green

INTRODUCTION

Anastomotic leakage (AL) remains a prevalent and life-threatening complication after esophagectomy. Gastric tube perfusion assessment using indocyanine green fluorescence imaging (ICG-FI) has been published in several studies and appears to be a promising tool to reduce AL rates by changing the surgical approach, namely by an intraoperative evaluation of the anastomosis localization.

METHODS

In this study, gastric tube perfusion was quantified by using ICG-FI in 20 high-risk patients undergoing esophagectomy. From a time-dependent fluorescence intensity curve, the following three parameters were evaluated: slope of fluorescence intensity (SFI), background subtracted peak fluorescence intensity (BSFI), and time to slope (TTS).

RESULTS

The values between pyloric region and tip showed a similar downward trend and SFI and BSFI significantly correlated with the distance to the pyloric region. SFI and BSFI were significantly decreased at the tip of the gastric tube. The placement of anastomosis in an area with homogenous fluorescence pattern was correlated with no AL in 92.9% of cases. An inhomogeneous fluorescence pattern at anastomotic site was a risk factor for the occurrence of an AL (p < 0.05). Reduction of perfusion up to 32% using SFI and up to 23% using BSFI was not associated with AL.

CONCLUSION

ICG-FI can be used to quantify the gastric tube perfusion by calculating SFI, BSFI, and TTS. The anastomosis should be created in areas with homogeneous fluorescence pattern. A reduction in blood flow of up to 32% can be accepted without causing an increased rate of insufficiency.

Robot-assisted minimally invasive esophagectomy (RAMIE) vs. hybrid minimally invasive esophagectomy: propensity score matched short-term outcome analysis of a European high-volume center

INTRODUCTION

Transthoracic esophagectomy is a highly complex and sophisticated procedure with high morbidity rates and a significant mortality. Surgical access has consistently become less invasive, transitioning from open esophagectomy to hybrid esophagectomy (HE) then to totally minimally invasive esophagectomy (MIE), and most recently to robot-assisted minimally invasive esophagectomy (RAMIE), with each step demonstrating improved patient outcomes. Aim of this study with more than 600 patients is to complete a propensity-score matched comparison of postoperative short-term outcomes after highly standardized RAMIE vs. HE in a European high volume center.

PATIENTS AND METHODS

Six hundred and eleven patients that underwent transthoracic Ivor-Lewis esophagectomy for esophageal cancer between May 2016 and May 2021 were included in the study. In January 2019, we implemented an updated robotic standardized anastomotic technique using a circular stapler and ICG (indocyanine green) for RAMIE cases. Data were retrospectively analyzed from a prospectively maintained IRB-approved database. Outcomes of patients undergoing standardized RAMIE from January 2019 to May 2021 were compared to our overall cohort from May 2016-April 2021 (HE) after a propensity-score matching analysis was performed.

RESULTS

Six hundred and eleven patients were analyzed. 107 patients underwent RAMIE. Of these, a total of 76 patients underwent a robotic thoracic reconstruction using the updated standardized circular stapled anastomosis (RAMIE group). A total of 535 patients underwent HE (Hybrid group). Seventy patients were propensity-score matched in each group and analysis revealed no statistically significant differences in baseline characteristics. RAMIE patients had a significantly shorter ICU stay (p = 0.0218). Significantly more patients had no postoperative complications (Clavien Dindo 0) in the RAMIE group [47.1% vs. 27.1% in the HE group (p = 0.0225)]. No difference was seen in lymph node yield and R0 resection rates. Anastomotic leakage rates when matched were 14.3% in the hybrid group vs. 4.3% in the RAMIE group (p = 0.07).

CONCLUSION

Our analysis confirms the safety and feasibility of RAMIE and HE in a large cohort after propensity score matching. A regular postoperative course (Clavien-Dindo 0) and a shorter ICU stay were seen significantly more often after RAMIE compared to HE. Furthermore it shows that both procedures provide excellent short-term oncologic outcomes, regarding lymph node harvest and R0 resection rates. A randomized controlled trial comparing RAMIE and HE is still pending and will hopefully contribute to ongoing discussions.