Intestinal and enthesis innate immunity in early axial spondyloarthropathy

Electrospinning technology: a promising approach for tendon-bone interface tissue engineering

The regeneration of tendon-bone interface tissue has become a topic of great interest in recent years. However, the complex nature of this interface has posed challenges in finding suitable solutions. Tissue engineering, with its potential to improve clinical outcomes and play a crucial role in musculoskeletal function, has been increasingly explored for tendon-bone interface regeneration. This review focuses on the research advancements of electrospinning technology in interface tissue engineering. By utilizing electrospinning, researchers have been able to fabricate scaffolds with tailored properties to promote the regeneration and integration of tendon and bone tissues. The review discusses the unique structure and function of the tendon-bone interface, the mechanisms involved in its healing, and the limitations currently faced in achieving successful regeneration. Additionally, it highlights the potential of electrospinning technology in scaffold fabrication and its role in facilitating the development of functional and integrated tendon-bone interface tissues. Overall, this review provides valuable insights into the application of electrospinning technology for tendon-bone interface tissue engineering, emphasizing its significance in addressing the challenges associated with regeneration in this complex interface.

Exploring the Pathogenesis of Spondylarthritis beyond HLA-B27: A Descriptive Review

Spondylarthritis (SpA) is a chronic inflammatory condition that encompasses damage to the axial or peripheral skeleton, accompanied by specific extra-articular symptoms. Within this group, Ankylosing Spondylitis stands out as the hallmark member. Although the heritability of Ankylosing Spondylitis is estimated to be over 95%, only a portion of the heritability has been explained, with HLA-B27 accounting for 20.1% of it; therefore, ongoing research endeavors are currently concentrated on investigating the potential participation of different entities in the development of the disease. Genome-wide association studies have led to significant advances in our understanding of the genetics of SpA. In this descriptive review, we delve into the pathogenesis of Spondylarthritis beyond HLA-B27. We summarize the latest research on the potential participation of various entities in the development of the disease, including other genetic loci, immune dysregulation, microbiota, and environmental factors. The multifactorial nature of SpA and the complex interplay of genetic, immunological, and environmental factors are being increasingly recognized; therefore, it is of paramount importance to consider a holistic approach to comprehend the pathogenesis of SpA in order to identify novel therapeutic targets.

The Role of Early Treatment in the Management of Axial Spondyloarthritis: Challenges and Opportunities

Axial spondyloarthritis (axSpA) is a chronic, inflammatory rheumatic disease that primarily affects the axial skeleton, often inflicting severe pain, diminished mobility, and a compromised quality of life. The advent of Assessment of SpondyloArthritis international Society (ASAS) classification criteria for spondyloarthritis (SpA) have enabled the classification of patients with axSpA in the non-radiographic stage but poorly perform if mistakenly used for diagnostic purposes. Despite notable progress in early diagnosis facilitated by referral strategies and extensive magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) utilization, diagnostic delays persist as a concerning issue. This underscores the urgency to narrow the diagnostic gap and highlights the critical role of early diagnosis in mitigating the long-term structural damage associated with this condition. Research into the impact of non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs) and biologic disease-modifying antirheumatic drugs (bDMARDs) on inflammatory symptoms and radiographic progression has been extensive. A compelling body of evidence suggests that early intervention leads to superior disease outcomes. However, most of these studies have centered on patients with established diseases rather than those in the early stages. Consequently, findings from studies on early pharmacological intervention remain inconclusive, and the potential for modifying the disease trajectory is still debatable. Without precise data from clinical trials, insights from basic science regarding the pathogenic mechanisms might point toward potential targets that warrant early intervention in the disease process. This review underscores the urgency of early diagnosis and intervention in axSpA, highlighting ongoing research gaps and the need for further exploration to improve patient outcomes.

Biologic Treatment Modification Efficacy in Concurrent Inflammatory Bowel Disease and Ankylosing Spondylitis: A Retrospective Cohort Study at a Single Tertiary Center

BACKGROUND

The link between ankylosing spondylitis (AS) and inflammatory bowel disease (IBD) is well-established, with concurrent prevalence estimates ranging from 5-10%. However, there are still significant gaps in our understanding, and a comprehensive treatment guideline for these co-diagnosed patients has yet to be established. Our objective was to explore patterns of treatment alterations following the diagnosis of AS in patients previously diagnosed with IBD, and vice versa. Additionally, we sought to determine how these modifications influence clinical outcomes in both conditions.

METHODS

This retrospective data-based cohort study included patients with coexisting IBD and AS that were diagnosed between the years 2009-2022 and were followed by the gastroenterology and the rheumatology units of the Sheba Medical Center, Israel. The data were extracted from the electronic health record and included demographic information, medication history, treatment modification at the time of second diagnosis, and the characteristics and activity of both IBD and AS at the index time and at the 3-month mark.

RESULTS

The study included a total of 68 patients, with a male predominance (40 patients, 59%). The median age was 43 years (IQR 31-55) and 78% had Crohn's disease (CD). The median duration between the diagnosis of the first disease to the second one was 4 years (IQR 1-9.5). A significant proportion of patients (85%) underwent treatment modification at their second diagnosis. Out of the total cohort, 28% initiated biological therapy, 17.6% switched their biologic regimen, and 16.2% discontinued NSAIDS. Patients who underwent biologic modifications at time of the second diagnosis (the initiation/switch/augmentation of a concurrent regimen) experienced significantly higher rates of clinical improvement in either IBD or AS at the 90-day follow-up compared to patients who did not (68% vs. 32%, p = 0.004), and biologic modification was found to be an independent predictor for clinical improvement (OR 3.69, CI 1.08-12.58, p = 0.037).

CONCLUSIONS

Our findings suggest that biologic therapy modification at the time of the second diagnosis was associated with a higher rate of improvement in AS/IBD at the 90-day follow-up.

The bone marrow side of axial spondyloarthritis

Spondyloarthritis (SpA) is characterized by the infiltration of innate and adaptive immune cells into entheses and bone marrow. Molecular, cellular and imaging evidence demonstrates the presence of bone marrow inflammation, a hallmark of SpA. In the spine and the peripheral joints, bone marrow is critically involved in the pathogenesis of SpA. Evidence suggests that bone marrow inflammation is associated with enthesitis and that there are roles for mechano-inflammation and intestinal inflammation in bone marrow involvement in SpA. Specific cell types (including mesenchymal stem cells, innate lymphoid cells and γδ T cells) and mediators (Toll-like receptors and cytokines such as TNF, IL-17A, IL-22, IL-23, GM-CSF and TGFβ) are involved in these processes. Using this evidence to demonstrate a bone marrow rather than an entheseal origin for SpA could change our understanding of the disease pathogenesis and the relevant therapeutic approach.

Spondyloarthritis with inflammatory bowel disease: the latest on biologic and targeted therapies

Spondyloarthritis (SpA) encompasses a heterogeneous group of chronic inflammatory diseases that can affect both axial and peripheral joints, tendons and entheses. Among the extra-articular manifestations, inflammatory bowel disease (IBD) is associated with considerable morbidity and effects on quality of life. In everyday clinical practice, treatment of these conditions requires a close collaboration between gastroenterologists and rheumatologists to enable early detection of joint and intestinal manifestations during follow-up and to choose the most effective therapeutic regimen, implementing precision medicine for each patient's subtype of SpA and IBD. The biggest issue in this field is the dearth of drugs that are approved for both diseases, as only TNF inhibitors are currently approved for the treatment of full-spectrum SpA-IBD. Janus tyrosine kinase inhibitors are among the most promising drugs for the treatment of peripheral and axial SpA, as well as for intestinal manifestations. Other therapies such as inhibitors of IL-23 and IL-17, phosphodiesterase 4 inhibitor, α4β7 integrin blockers and faecal microbiota transplantation seem to only be able to control some disease domains, or require further studies. Given the growing interest in the development of novel drugs to treat both conditions, it is important to understand the current state of the art and the unmet needs in the management of SpA-IBD.

Chronic Nonbacterial Osteomyelitis and Inflammatory Bowel Disease: A Literature Review-Based Cohort

Background: Chronic nonbacterial osteomyelitis (CNO) is a rare autoinflammatory bone disorder that mainly involves children and adolescents. The association with other inflammatory disorders, such as inflammatory bowel disease (IBD), psoriasis, and arthritis, has been reported in the literature. In particular, the relationship between bone and intestinal inflammation is still poorly understood. For this purpose, our review aims to describe the cases reported in the literature concerning this association and to compare them with data from our single-center cohort of patients. Methods: We conducted a literature review of published cases of CNO associated with IBD. Eligible articles were identified through a Medline search in the PubMed database until December 2022. We retrospectively reviewed medical records of patients with CNO referred to G. Pini Hospital and compared them with the literature-review-based cohort. Results: Fifty-seven patients with a defined diagnosis of CNO and associated IBD were described in the literature (female 55%). The median age of onset of the disease (CNO or IBD) was 11 years. In 32/53 (60%), a diagnosis of Crohn’s disease (CD) was made, while 18 (34%) patients were classified as suffering from ulcerative colitis (UC) and 3 (6%) from undifferentiated IBD. The diagnosis of CNO preceded the diagnosis of IBD in 59% of cases; while in 24%, IBD anticipated CNO; and in 17%, the two conditions appeared simultaneously. The median time between the two events was 24 months. In our Italian cohort (n = 23 patients), no diagnosis of IBD was made. No significant differences were found when comparing clinical and demographical characteristics of the Italian vs. review-based cohort, except for a significant involvement of rachis in the Italian group. Conclusions: The correlation between autoinflammatory bone disease and intestinal inflammation should be further investigated. It is essential to promote awareness among pediatric rheumatologists and gastroenterologists about this possible association to facilitate the diagnosis and better optimize treatment.

Bibliometric analysis of publications on enthesitis in spondyloarthritis in 2012-2021 based on web of science core collection databases

Enthesitis, a characteristic of spondyloarthritis, has been paid considerable attention by researchers, and numerous enthesitis-related studies have been published in recent years. However, no study has been conducted to analyze enthesitis-related researches with bibliometric methods. This study aimed to provide a broad understanding of enthesitis-related researches and explore the direction of hot topics and future research trends from a bibliometric perspective. The global literatures on enthesitis published from 2012 to 2021 were scanned in the Web of Science Core Collection databases. Visualization and bibliometric analyses were generated by an online bibliometric platform and VOSviewer software to explore the hot topics and research trends. A total of 1,181 documents were included in this study. Publications were mainly from these countries in North America and Western Europe. Among these countries, the United States was the leading country with the maximum publication counts (210), highest h-index (47), and largest collaboration network as of June 29, 2022. The most influential journal and powerful author were Journal of Rheumatology and Professor Mease PJ, respectively. Co-occurrence analysis of keywords identified that "axial spondyloarthritis", "interleukin 23", and "secukinumab" might be the future hotspots. More and more attention had been paid to enthesitis in the past 10 years. Present studies focused on the effect of inflammatory cytokines involved in the pathogenesis and the development of antibodies against these factors. These studies played a key role in understanding the research direction and subsequent management of enthesitis, and helped researchers extract hidden valuable information for further study.

Scaffold-based tissue engineering strategies for soft-hard interface regeneration

Repairing injured tendon or ligament attachments to bones (enthesis) remains costly and challenging. Despite superb surgical management, the disorganized enthesis newly formed after surgery accounts for high recurrence rates after operations. Tissue engineering offers efficient alternatives to promote healing and regeneration of the specialized enthesis tissue. Load-transmitting functions thus can be restored with appropriate biomaterials and engineering strategies. Interestingly, recent studies have focused more on microstructure especially the arrangement of fibers since Rossetti successfully demonstrated the variability of fiber underspecific external force. In this review, we provide an important update on the current strategies for scaffold-based tissue engineering of enthesis when natural structure and properties are equally emphasized. We firstly described compositions, structures and features of natural enthesis with their special mechanical properties highlighted. Stimuli for growth, development and healing of enthesis widely used in popular strategies are systematically summarized. We discuss the fabrication of engineering scaffolds from the aspects of biomaterials, techniques and design strategies and comprehensively evaluate the advantages and disadvantages of each strategy. At last, this review pinpoints the remaining challenges and research directions to make breakthroughs in further studies.

Joint involvement, disease activity and quality of life in pediatric Crohn's disease - a cross-sectional study

BACKGROUND

Few published data describe how joint involvement, the most prevalent extraintestinal manifestation, affects quality of life (QoL) of children with Crohn's disease (CD). Arthritis and arthralgia rates in pediatric CD patients are reportedly 3-24% and 17-22%, respectively, but studies on pre-emptive and systematic screening of joint involvement with detailed musculoskeletal rheumatological exam are lacking. More detailed data collection on joint involvement improves our understanding of how arthropathy relates to disease activity and QoL measured by the Pediatric CD Activity Index (PCDAI) and IMPACT-III questionnaire. Our study aims were to assess joint involvement in pediatric CD and correlate it with the PCDAI and IMPACT-III.

METHODS

In this cross-sectional, observational study, a pediatric gastroenterologist assessed consecutively-seen pediatric CD patients at a tertiary care center. Patients were screened for prevalence of current and previous arthropathy, including arthritis, enthesitis and arthralgia. A single experienced pediatric rheumatologist evaluated detailed musculoskeletal history, joint status, and modified Juvenile Arthritis Multidimensional Assessment Reports (JAMAR). PCDAI, IMPACT-III, sacroiliac MRI, and HLA-B27 genetic testing were also completed.

RESULTS

A total of 82 (male:female, 1.2:1; age, 13.7 ± 3.2 years) patients were involved in this study. Mean disease duration at time of study was 21.6 ± 21 months; eight of the patients were newly-diagnosed. Of the 82 patients, 29 (35%) had evidence of arthritis; for 24 of those, this was revealed by physical exam during cross-sectional screening, and by prior documentation for the remaining five patients. Joint examination confirmed active arthritis in 8/24 (33%), active enthesitis in 1/24 (4%), and evidence of previous arthritis in 15/24 (62.5%) patients. Hip (41%) and knee (38%) joints were most commonly affected. Cumulative incidence of arthralgia was 48% (39/82), and 46% (18/39) of those patients had only arthralgia without arthritis, usually affecting the knee. Axial involvement was present in 10/82 (12%) patients. Joint involvement correlated with more severe CD disease activity, specifically higher PCDAI and lower IMPACT-III scores, and increased requirement for infliximab treatment. Sacroiliitis and HLA-B27 positivity were insignificant factors in this cohort.

CONCLUSIONS

When a rheumatologist performed the assessment, joint involvement in pediatric CD was more prevalent than previously reported, in this cross-sectional study. Arthritis was associated with more severe CD disease activity and lower QoL.

The Potential Role of Genetics, Environmental Factors, and Gut Dysbiosis in the Aberrant Non-Coding RNA Expression to Mediate Inflammation and Osteoclastogenic/Osteogenic Differentiation in Ankylosing Spondylitis

Ankylosing spondylitis (AS) or radiographic axial spondyloarthritis is a chronic immune-mediated rheumatic disorder characterized by the inflammation in the axial skeleton, peripheral joints, and soft tissues (enthesis, fascia, and ligament). In addition, the extra-skeletal complications including anterior uveitis, interstitial lung diseases and aortitis are found. The pathogenesis of AS implicates an intricate interaction among HLA (HLA-B27) and non-HLA loci [endoplasmic reticulum aminopeptidase 1 (ERAP1), and interleukin-23 receptor (IL23R), gut dysbiosis, immune plasticity, and numerous environmental factors (infections, heavy metals, stress, cigarette smoking, etc.) The latter multiple non-genetic factors may exert a powerful stress on epigenetic regulations. These epigenetic regulations of gene expression contain DNA methylation/demethylation, histone modifications and aberrant non-coding RNAs (ncRNAs) expression, leading to inflammation and immune dysfunctions. In the present review, we shall discuss these contributory factors that are involved in AS pathogenesis, especially the aberrant ncRNA expression and its effects on the proinflammatory cytokine productions (TNF-α, IL-17 and IL-23), T cell skewing to Th1/Th17, and osteoclastogenic/osteogenic differentiation. Finally, some potential investigatory approaches are raised for solving the puzzles in AS pathogenesis.

Advanced genomics and clinical phenotypes in psoriatic arthritis

Psoriatic Arthritis (PsA) is a complex polygenic inflammatory disease showing a variable musculoskeletal involvement in patients with skin psoriasis. PsA coexist in 25-40 % of patients with the dermatological manifestations, but PsA may also predate the appearance of psoriasis. Nonetheless, the immunopathogenesis of psoriasis and PsA manifest significant similarities, with a major role of the individual susceptibility in both cases. Genome wide association studies (GWAS) identified several genes/loci associated with the risk to develop PsA, both dependent and independent of psoriasis. The major challenge is thus represented by the need to translate the identification of functional polymorphisms and other genetics findings into biological mechanisms along with the identification of novel putative drug targets. A functional genomics approach aims to increase GWAS power and recent evidence supports the use of a multilayer process, including eQTL, methylome, chromatin conformation analysis and genome editing to discover novel genes that can be affected by disease-associated variants, such as PsA. The available data have considered PsA as a unique homogeneous clinical entity while the clinical experience supports a wide variability of skin and joint manifestations coexisting in diverse patients with different mechanisms underlying the musculoskeletal and dermatological domains. A better discrimination of the patient features is encouraged by the limited data on functional genomics. We provide herein a review of the latest findings on PsA functional genomics highlighting the exciting developments in the field and how these might lead to a better understanding of gene regulation underpinning disease mechanisms and ultimately refine clinical phenotyping.

The gut-enthesis axis and the pathogenesis of Spondyloarthritis

Subclinical inflammation is associated with Spondylarthritis (SpA). SpA patients show features of dysbiosis, altered gut barrier function, and local expansion of innate and innate-like cells involved in type 3 immune response. The recirculation of intestinal primed immune cells into the bloodstream and, in some cases, in the joints and the inflamed bone marrow of SpA patients gave the basis of the gut-joint axis theory. In the light of the critical role of enthesis in the pathogenesis of SpA and the identification of mucosal-derived immune cells residing into the normal human enthesis, a gut-enthesis axis is also likely to exist. This work reviews the current knowledge on enthesis-associated innate immune cells' primary involvement in enthesitis development, questions their origin, and critically discusses the clues supporting the existence of a gut-enthesis axis contributing to SpA development.

Immunopathophysiology of Juvenile Spondyloarthritis (jSpA): The "Out of the Box" View on Epigenetics, Neuroendocrine Pathways and Role of the Macrophage Migration Inhibitory Factor (MIF)

Juvenile spondyloarthritis (jSpA) is a an umbrella term for heterogeneous group of related seronegative inflammatory disorders sharing common symptoms. Although it mainly affects children and adolescents, it often remains active during adulthood. Genetic and environmental factors are involved in its occurrence, although the exact underlying immunopathophysiology remains incompletely elucidated. Accumulated evidence suggests that, in affected patients, subclinical gut inflammation caused by intestinal dysbiosis, is pivotal to the future development of synovial-entheseal complex inflammation. While the predominant role of IL17/23 axis, TNF-α, and IL-7 in the pathophysiology of SpA, including jSpA, is firmly established, the role of the cytokine macrophage migration inhibitory factor (MIF) is generally overlooked. The purpose of this review is to discuss and emphasize the role of epigenetics, neuroendocrine pathways and the hypothalamic-pituitary (HPA) axis, and to propose a novel hypothesis of the role of decreased NLRP3 gene expression and possibly MIF in the early phases of jSpA development. The decreased NLRP3 gene expression in the latter, due to hypomethylation of promotor site, is (one of) the cause for inflammasome malfunction leading to gut dysbiosis observed in patients with early jSpA. In addition, we highlight the role of MIF in the complex innate, adaptive cellular and main effector cytokine network, Finally, since treatment of advanced bone pathology in SpA remains an unmet clinical need, I suggest possible new drug targets with the aim to ultimately improve treatment efficacy and long-term outcome of jSpA patients.

Disease activity indices in psoriatic arthritis: current and evolving concepts

Psoriatic arthritis (PsA) is a highly heterogenous disease, with many different clinical manifestations inside or outside of the musculoskeletal system and the skin. It is often accompanied by comorbidities like cardiovascular diseases and mental health disorders. Acute phase reactants are not always elevated and specific markers for diagnosis and/or monitor the disease are lacking thus far. These characteristics possibly reflect the difficulty in agreement about a disease activity index for PsA. Many indices have been proposed over the last years, each of them considering different combinations of disease characteristics. We performed a literature search for relevant articles using PubMed and Embase. No data limits were applied. The keywords "Psoriatic arthritis" OR "PsA" AND "disease activity" AND "index" OR "indices" were used. Reference lists of relevant articles were also reviewed. Articles were also identified through searches of the authors' own files. In this review, we comparatively present the available indices (simple or composite) used for measuring activity in PsA, highlighting their weaknesses, strengths, and disparities. We comment also on the caveats and pitfalls that are encountered in assessment of disease activity, in relation to clinical practice and research. A widely accepted index for measuring disease activity in PsA is lacking. Other parameters, mostly related to patient-reported outcomes and to novel biomarkers might be included in the future, in such indices. Key points • Disease activity in PsA is multiparametric and its assessment is challenging due to many different phenotypes. • Many different indices are currently in use of PsA disease activity assessment. • Each PsA disease activity index has specific pros and cons.

Ankylosing spondylitis risk factors: a systematic literature review

Radiographic axial spondyloarthritis (also known as ankylosing spondylitis [AS]) is a chronic immune-mediated arthritis characterized by inflammation of the axial skeleton, peripheral joints, and entheses. It is estimated that 1 in every 200 people are affected by AS, making it an important healthcare and socioeconomic issue. In this review, we aim to explore the current understanding of AS risk factors and provide a comprehensive update. Multiple search strings were used to identify articles of interest published in PubMed between January 1, 2013, and February 1, 2021. On the basis of the literature review and analysis, we present up-to-date information on the risk factors of developing AS and our viewpoints on disease onset and progression. Multiple genetic and nongenetic risk factors have been suggested in the onset of AS. HLA-B27 is known to have a strong association with the disease, but other genes have been implicated in disease development. Aside from genetics, other factors are thought to be involved; up to 70% of patients with AS have subclinical intestinal inflammation, suggesting that the origin of the disease may be in the gut. The exact mechanism by which AS onset begins is most likely complex and multifactorial. Key Points • It remains unclear how interactions between genes, microbes, mechanical stress, gender, and other environmental and lifestyle factors predispose patients to the development of ankylosing spondylitis (AS). • The exact mechanisms of AS are complex and multifactorial which will require much future research • Recognizing the risk factors, as well as understanding gene-environment interactions, may offer valuable insights into the etiology of AS and have important implications for diagnosis and treatment strategies.

Why Inhibition of IL-23 Lacked Efficacy in Ankylosing Spondylitis

The term spondyloarthritis pertains to both axial and peripheral arthritis including ankylosing spondylitis (AS) and psoriatic arthritis (PsA), which is strongly linked to psoriasis and also the arthritis associated with inflammatory bowel disease. The argument supporting the role for IL-23 across the spectrum of SpA comes from 4 sources. First, genome wide associated studies (GWAS) have shown that all the aforementioned disorders exhibit IL-23R pathway SNPs, whereas HLA-B27 is not linked to all of these diseases-hence the IL-23 pathway represents the common genetic denominator. Secondly, experimental animal models have demonstrated a pivotal role for the IL-23/IL-17 axis in SpA related arthropathy that initially manifests as enthesitis, but also synovitis and axial inflammation and also associated aortic root and cutaneous inflammation. Thirdly, the emergent immunology of the human enthesis also supports the presence of IL-23 producing myeloid cells, not just at the enthesis but in other SpA associated sites including skin and gut. Finally, drugs that target the IL-23 pathway show excellent efficacy for skin disease, efficacy for IBD and also in peripheral arthropathy associated with SpA. The apparent failure of IL-23 blockade in the AS which is effectively a spinal polyenthesitis but evidence for efficacy of IL-23 inhibition for peripheral enthesitis in PsA and preliminary suggestions for benefit in axial PsA, raises many questions. Key amongst these is whether spinal inflammation may exhibit entheseal IL-17A production independent of IL-23 but peripheral enthesitis is largely dependent on IL-23 driven IL-17 production. Furthermore, IL-23 blocking strategies in animal models may prevent experimental SpA evolution but not prevent established disease, perhaps pointing towards a role for IL-23 in innate immune disease initiation whereas persistent disease is dependent on memory T-cell responses that drive IL-17A production independently of IL-23, but this needs further study. Furthermore, IL-12/23 posology in inflammatory bowel disease is substantially higher than that used in AS trials which merits consideration. Therefore, the IL-23 pathway is centrally involved in the SpA concept but the nuances and intricacies in axial inflammation that suggest non-response to IL-23 antagonism await formal definition. The absence of comparative immunology between the different skeletal sites renders explanations purely hypothetical at this juncture.